Dinner With Dad 3
I’ll be honest: I’m a devout atheist, and something of an anti-theist at times. I don’t have a lot of respect for the religions in the world. To quote Tim Minchin: Just because ideas are tenacious doesn’t mean that they’re worthy.
But I do have a shred of respect for the Jews. First off, most Jews I’ve known have been pretty cool people. Secondly, they tend to have a very laid-back take on their religion – which is odd, considering just how long the Hebrew faiths have existed. Most religions that last this long do so through extremism, especially in the modern age. Modern Jews? I’ve met one family in my entire life that I’d call “EXTREME HEBREW” (extreme-brew?). Even they were pleasant folks, who didn’t try to push their religion on me. The rest? Mostly observe the faith and its trappings as sort of a family tradition, like putting up a Xmas tree or lighting fireworks on the 4th.
I kinda dig that. Don’t get me wrong – I still think they’re following a religion that was dreamt up by illiterate goat herders thousands of years ago, back when the tribes though the world was flat, stars were made of candles, and they didn’t know what soap was. But my normal disdain for organized religion is tempered by the fact that they’re not dicks about it, for the most part.
Mick’s demeanor here is based on watching a friend flip out and act weird in our teens, when he realized that another mutual friend was Jewish.
Religion is like a penis. I like mine, and i don’t really care if you like mine. Just don’t try to shove yours down my throat.
And there are some people who think “Jew” are more an ethnicity then a Religion.
Pretty much spot-on.
If I’m going to show someone my penis, then they already like the rest of me.
And if they already like the rest of me, it shouldn’t matter whether or not they like my penis.
to continue the metaphor:
some people don’t have one, and that is perfectly OK.
I quit fighting over who had the best imaginary friend in grade school. Some people never get over grade school fights…
My imaginary friend Allah will beat the shit outta your imaginary friend!
I take a strong stance of uncertainty. I have never seen definitive proof in favor of god being real, but I don’t think anyone can say that there is no god, because if there really is some omnipotent, all-seeing entity, I think it would have to exist on some plane that we aren’t aware of.
Besides which, there are way the fuck too many religions for me to say any one of them is the right one.
I have never seen definitive proof in favor of the Easter Bunny being real, but most people would consider me daft if I insisted that there was one anyway, even if I claimed that the Easter Bunny was omniscient and omnipotent. (C’mon, he can get into all those houses to leave baskets full of candy, right?) Pointing out that there are books about him doesn’t make my claim any stronger, either. If I then choose to assert that the Easter Bunny is named “God”, my claim isn’t any less absurd just because I’ve changed his name or appealed to tradition.
As for “I don’t think anyone can say that there is no god” specifically, it’s fallacious to shift the burden of proof, and absurd to do so for an explicitly-unprovable claim. If I make a claim that something highly improbable exists but is undetectable and thus unprovable, it is not only correct for you to claim without proof that it does not (since proof would be impossible), it is absurd for you to agree with me that it does or might exist. (See Russell’s Teapot.)
Note, by the way, that the claim “God exists and we can’t prove or disprove it yet” could be a very different claim. If the claim includes something verifiable and falsifiable, even if not with current technology, then it’s a valid hypothesis and should be considered in that light. Relativity was not provable with technology available when it was originally formulated, but later experiments gave us evidence that allows us to call it correct (or more accurately, that fails to prove it wrong). The claim “there is an imbalance between matter and antimatter because God made it that way, since there is no other explanation” would provide something to falsify with further research. However, theists very rarely draw such a line in the sand, since, historically, contradictory evidence has always been found.
Mmmmm, a true believer.
The study of a deity can easily begin at newton’s third law of motion: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. From this we can observe that every reaction came from an equal and opposite cause. So. If we take a line of dominoes stretching from now to infinity and stack them ever-so-neatly in a straight line, you will observe that what we have is an infinite row of standing dominoes. Until an outside force works on one or more of those dominoes. Then the line is either falling infinately in one or both directions. No reaction would exist without an outside action to begin the chain.
Now, from THERE, once atheism is defeated, you have a vast, overwhelming number of choices, and many factors to examine in determining the existance of a *specific* deity. My search was aided by narrowing down the choices by certian attributes: custodity of information, modern examples of the faithful at work, modern examples of the deity at work with some proof as to the claimed work, and validity of teaching.
Personally, I went with Catholacism for it’s fulfillment of those criteria. Catholicism, along with Orthodoxy, can claim through the Apostles and Christ to be the heirs of ancient Judiasm. With the dedication to the bible and general dedication to knowledge and the written word, the line of custodity passes from the modern Church to the ancient Church back to the Temple. As for the faithful at work, well, Catholic hospitals, universities, charities, schools, missions, libraries, scientific initatives… it’s hard to find a sphere in which the faithful don’t walk. And miracles continue to this day, from the unprovable private revelations to the dubious claims of public visions right up to the easily confirmed miraculious healings. Heck, you can even find guys and gals levitating and being blessed by the stigmata to this day. Finally, I’ve looked through the pantheons of the world to find something that I’d consider worthy of veneration. Most polytheistic pantheons are full of super-human children full of pettyness and jealousy. Not my bag. Some of the eastern faiths are interesting, but I believe that life is here to be experienced completely, not that we have to cut parts of ourselves away. Shamanism can be interesting, but if a deity can be bound and forced into doing things for you, the can be bound and forced into doing things TO you. Which took me to the Abrahamic faiths. Islam is… well, Islam, and Judiasm, while beautiful, is a preparation for something that has already happened. In Christianity, our God came down in the flesh to walk how we walk, to live how we live, suffer how we suffer and die how we die with a message of love. And while that message has been draped in steel and made a war banner or wrapped in paper and turned into a political statement, that isn’t the fault of the message.
Just so I’m clear, you’re asserting that a deity must exist because Newton’s Third Law of Motion exists?
Problem #1: Newton’s Third Law is an approximation that is not necessarily valid in non-classical physics (eg, forces between charged particles at relativistic speeds). The most non-classical-physics event in our understanding of the history of the universe was the Big Bang. Newton’s Third Law does not necessarily apply to the creation of the universe.
Problem #2: Newton’s Third Law of Motion is just that: a law of MOTION. Extending it to anything other than a two-body interaction is a gross misunderstanding of its meaning and limitations. Modern physics permits the creation of something from nothing (eg, virtual particles and Hawking radiation); no divine intervention required.
Problem #3: “Existence of a Creator” does not equal “Christian God”. You failed to mention deism, but deism suffices to answer your “there must be a Creator” argument without requiring an Invisible Man taking a personal interest in the life of anybody who donates to the Church in His name while somehow leaving no concrete evidence. The existence of a Creator is not of itself sufficient to support belief in Catholicism.
I’m no “true believer”; atheism requires no belief, just a sapient brain and the will to use it.
Vyk, it’s his version of the Cosmological argument, or, “Why is there something instead of nothing?” Infidels.org has a pretty good set of arguments on boths sides, although it obviously cannot be exhaustive, and selection bias will probably favor arguments against. If you find the cosmological argument unconvincing, the rest of his post doesn’t matter, beyond the brief list of ways in which civilization has benefitted from the presence of the Church.
“So. If we take a line of dominoes stretching from now to infinity and stack them ever-so-neatly in a straight line, you will observe that what we have is an infinite row of standing dominoes. Until an outside force works on one or more of those dominoes. Then the line is either falling infinitely in one or both directions. No reaction would exist without an outside action to begin the chain. … Now, from THERE, once atheism is defeated …”
Nope. To extend on your metaphor, an outside force need not be an omnipotent entity. The outside force in your scenario could be as simple as the dominoes being made of wood, and warping over time until one falls over.
Theism is exhaustive. Your either believe in a theistic religion, or you don’t. Atheism is inclusive, it’s what you are if your not a theist, with all the infinite variety that implies. Atheism is not a religion, it requires no belief, participation, or thought. Some people specifically choose to believe that there’s no god, but that is merely one example of atheism. An atheist could be someone who hasn’t made up their mind, or even someone who has no concept of theism. Which by the way includes babies/young children, who actually can’t not be atheists as they can’t grasp the concept of theism.
It’s ok Mick, his skin’s white so apparently that means you can say any racist shit you like.
Racist, or just plain ignorant? There is a difference. Especially when you mean well, and don’t realize you’re being an idiot.
Mick isn’t a douche, he’s just kinda stupid at times.
I would say jacked in too a sect of academia he didnt fully reasearch before accepting and exspanding upon it wit his own belifes but “kinda stupid” gets us where we need to go so I guess I should shut up.
“We must respect the other fellow’s religion but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.” ― H.L. Mencken
One of my favorite curmudgeons, there. 🙂
My roommate in college/best friend/person I quote various lines from the “Jay” series from whenever we hang out is Jewish. The interesting thing about Judaism is that unless you live in certain areas, most of the people you encounter are likely to be about as observant of their faith as many Christians. They head to temple for the big holidays and maybe once in a while when they’re feeling particularly pious/guilty (it’s the same thing). Otherwise they’re pretty
loxlax about things. My friend was quite fond of cracking jokes related to his judaism. He went for a walk once and told me he’d be back in 40 years. Though my favorite was one evening hanging out with some friends, one of the girls in our group was as German as can be, blonde hair, sky blue eyes, milky white skin and loved drinking beer. My jewish friend was fiddling with a lighter and accidentally burned himself. Without missing a beat he looked at the German girl and asked if the smell reminded her of anything.I see what you did there.
Hehehehehehehehe
I remember (barely) a late night college beer killing session when a blond-haired, blue-eyed buddy stated he was Jewish. The reaction was swift and universal; “All the shit you eat is Kosher?!?”
I think you’re mistaking all Christians for American/Born Again Christians. If you met those from the C of E you’d pretty much get the same sense of it. The problem with Christianity is it’s a HUGE FREAKING UMBRELLA. I mean you have the average Christian(meaning not the Texas Christians you know) who you might never know was a Christian unless you asked them. Then you have the absolute extreme right wing/sociopath Christians(Bible Thumpers), and then you have the provocateur Christians(Westborough Baptist Church) who’s only mission in life is to get you to punch one of them so you can be sued into oblivion.
The Westboro Baptist Church is not, by any reasonable definition, Christian. They don’t act Christian, and they’re not part of any recognized Baptist denomination. Claiming to be Christian while pissing all over the Bible doesn’t make you a Christian, just an asshole.
Tommycat, I think you’re painting American Christians with too broad a brush. There are plenty who are in-your-face about it (they do seem to be more common in the southern U.S.), but there are also plenty who you could assume are Christian (76% of the U.S. population identifies as Christian, so it’s a safe assumption), but who aren’t in-your-face about it. Sometimes this is because they aren’t terribly devout, but sometimes it’s just because they’re low-key about their religion. (Sometimes it’s even because being low-key about religion is part of their religion.)
I agree with your statement overall, though. To extend it, I’d like to note that beliefs among Christians (nearly everywhere, including the U.S.) vary widely. You might be friends with somebody who is pro-choice, pro-gay-marriage, pro-contraception, and showing no signs (in appearance or speech) of being religious, and only eventually discover they are a deacon of a Congregationalist church and are both devout and fully within their church’s teachings. You might also be friends with somebody who politely invites you at least once a month to join them at their Baptist church on Sunday and who suggests that you stop drinking; they believe you’ll go to hell if you don’t do these things, and they like you and don’t want that. (Both of these examples are based on people I know in the northern U.S..)
Good point, I should have said “Bible Thumping American Christians” I live in the US, and have almost my entire life. Most of the English Christians I have met are from the C of E and pretty much are like the remaining Christians in that for the most part, you wouldn’t even know they were Christian until you claimed that all Christians are a-holes.
I only classify WBC as Christian because they make the claim they are. It’s to show the wide range of people who claim to be Christian. I mean there’s even a few pretty well known and VERY liberal Christian Preachers. Like Nadia Bolz-Weber. Swears, Tatted, all inclusive.
2 things. Want dicks? Messianic Jews. (AKA Jews for Jesus) – they can’t even figure out what faith they really are….and they totally shove that religion-penis down everyone’s throat. (I love that metaphor, btw).
Other thing – Grew up Jewish. Liberal Reform. Rabbi decided to experiment with Traif, and had pork one Friday. Got massive food poisoning and had to miss services that weekend. I suspect I’m going to some hell somewhere for finding that amazingly funny.
Oh, and you know Alex’s family isn’t all that observant – SHE HAS TATTOOS.
I think it’s pretty obvious that Alex isn’t observant. The question for Mick is: How observant is her Dad?
Actually, I think between regular Jews, Christians and Messianic Jews, the Messianic Jews are the ONLY ones that know what they’re doing!
Jews – Don’t believe that Jesus, a Jew, was the Messiah.
Christians – Believe that Jesus, a Jew, is the head of some completely new religion that didn’t exist at the time
Messianic Jews – Believe that Jesus, a Jew, is not only the Messiah, but still a Jew, and is the Messiah of the Jews!
Seriously, they’re the only smart ones in the bunch!
As a practising Reform Jew, I can confirm that not only do I find this laugh-until-you-need-your-inhaler funny, but our synagogue’s Rabbi has a rather dry sense of humour and will laugh herself silly as soon as I remember to pass the line on…
The only time I try to get others to come along to temple is when we’re having open house parties at some of the festivals; you have to admit that Jewish tradition has some awesome food and downright weird-but-tasty drinks.
Weirdly, I didn’t grow up in the faith, but ended up going to the synagogue for the first time as an adult when I realised where all the people who believed in the same way as I did were hanging out (humanist upbringing combined with theist spirituality).
Well, he can’t be of the most observant bunch, as:
a- you didn’t draw him in Hasidic garb
b- he hasn’t disowned his daughter for the tattoos, and the pre-marital sex (I’m assuming that b/c they live in the same household).
The way you drew Alex’s dad reminds me of a 70’s biker.
On the lighter side, and speaking of “putting the ‘brew’ in Hebrew”, why is it I never hear much about Israeli beer? Anyone know if there’s an Israeli beer brand?
There are several, and microbreweries have become very popular here as well.
The ubiquitous “Israeli Beer” is Goldstar, a dark amber lager with a nice body and very little head.
The most popular one after that is called Macabee, which is similar but lighter.
Then you have the newer microbreweries, the most interesting of which are, in my opinion, The Dancing Camel brewery, Negev Brewery, Anubis brewery and HaGolan Brewery, all of which make some pretty good beers, and all of which are probably impossible to find outside of Israel.
If you (or James, for that matter) are interested in tasting any of these let me know.
‘Ey. You.
http://ftf-comics.com/?comic=dinner-with-dad-1
^Check the bottom comment.
sounds like some Jewish girls I’ve known – a nice body, but very little head….
Wow, chauvinistic and antisemitic in one go!
An awful lot of the jews I’ve known are flat-out atheists. But they’re still jewish.
That’s what you get to do when you’re part of “a people”..not quite a race–cuz you can convert to it–and not just a religion, cuz you can ditch that part and keep the rest.
It’s all tov.
😛
🙂
I loved this comic, laughed my head off and then had to readjust my headscarf. Brilliantly priceless.
Well, the ultra-orthodox ones get awful riled up when women pray in the wrong places, but other than that they can be pretty cool about it.
Two things:
1. Want to prove the existance of ‘God” or ‘a god”? Point to her. We’ll wait…..
2. “Thou art god.” -MVS.
All I’ll say is, there are things in this world that science and rationality can’t explain. Plug it on religion, unknown scientific phenomenons, an act of Cthulhu, the Force or the Pastafarian God, it doesn’t matter. The only thing I’m convinced of on “religious matters” is that we can’t fully, completely explain -everything-.
What if Cthuhlu is just the evolved version of Spaghetti Monster?
Mind. Blown.
St Augustine had to have that pointed out to him, too, in a manner that was a bit harsh.
The story goes, he was walking along the beach one day, and he runs across a little kid, who has dug a little hole in the sand, and is pouring buckets of water he’s drawn from the sea into it. He asks the kid, “What are you doing?”
Kid says, “I’m putting the sea into this hole.”
St. Augustine tells him, “You cannot fit the sea into that little hole.”
The kid says, “Then why do you think you can fit everything about God into your mind?” And by the time St. Augustine finishes processing this, the kid is gone.
We have a term for this kind of thing, “sacred mysteries.” Sr. Mary Martha often says on her blog that it’s Catholic for “let it go, dear,” but I think a better way of putting it is, “a sacred mystery is something you can ALWAYS learn more about.”
Spaghetti Monster is a PC version of Cthuhlu, designed to induce the naive into the insidious cult. When the critical mass of cultists is reached, the stars will align and the great Cthuhlu will wake from his slumber.
And then? SASHIMI FOR ALLLLLL!
That Tim Minchin song is my absolute favorite Christmas song