Strange Shells 2
Let’s open THAT bag of worms!
I argue about firearms a lot. My buddy Jake, for instance, can attest that I will vociferously defend the 2A outright. I don’t believe in gun control legislation as a concept. It’s horseshit.
The main reason I believe this is that I can, with a phone call to one of several shady friends, go buy a black market firearm. A pistol or rifle they’ll sell me at a minor discount, since the piece has a terrible scratch on the serial number. From when it fell off a passing truck. I’m not a gang member, I’m not a coke dealer, I’m not a felon. But I know people. Not even terribly impressive people. (Sorry, B.) Just dime-store criminals who happen to sell guns. (I DON’T buy weapons from these people, because I’m a law-abiding citizen.)
But the secondary reason I’m against gun control is that, if you really understand guns, you can build your own. I’m not even talking about gun-making parties like that where you make your own machined rifle. I’m saying that if you truly understand how firearms work, you can make one on your own with inexpensive hardware. Anyone, and I do mean anyone, who understands how firearms work can make one out of very basic hardware.
Is what Mick is doing here legal? Absolutely not. But people do it all the time. I may have (allegedly) made a functioning .410 shotgun ages ago with $25 worth of hardware and 6 hours of sweat. It (allegedly) worked. It wasn’t a tack-driver (allegedly), no, but it (allegedly) got the job done at close range and didn’t blow up in my hands. (allegedly)
Gun control laws exist on the idea that we can’t make projectile weapons on our own, outside of the law. And that’s bullshit.
Making your own firearms is completely legal so long as you don’t try to sell or transfer it. The link you attached “Absolutely not” to also says so.
“For your information, per provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, an unlicensed individual may make a “firearm” as defined in the GCA for his own personal use, but not for sale or distribution.”
Though disguising it as a cane, without a tax stamp, would be a felony under the National Firearms Act.
Though maybe our host was thinking of the foregrip, and that Mick’s making an… 8 gauge pistol?
Mick’s not stupid enough to do that, though.
Disguising it would definitely be a felony, as cane guns are outlawed. I don’t think there are any NFA type rules on home made firearms though, so long as it isn’t automatic. The law specifically states manufacturing a “machine gun” at home is illegal, but I can’t find anything suggesting making your own AOW is illegal.
making an AOW without a stamp is illegal, any firearms manufactured even by an individual need to adhere to federal, state, and local laws. with the exception of a batfe assigned serial number and registration. this does not exempt you from state registration where required.
Wait. Whenever I see conflicting laws, I ask the gallery if they’ve ever seen them taken to court to test supremacy. Assuming “green state”, how does that work, now?
http://firearmsfreedomact.com
Largely unrelated since most of the state supremacy laws that I’ve seen include exemptions for items regulated under the NFA
bottom line would be that it would vary state to state and then you’re still depending on the Govt. to follow those state laws instead of arresting you on federal charges and you getting to be the test case for your state’s version.
Actually, cane guns are NOT necessarily illegal under the NFA — it would have to built so that it has a 16″ barrel (if a “rifle”) or an 18″ barrel (if a “shotgun”), AND be 26″ long overall. It may be illegal under your state law, however (as a concealed weapon, generally – and many states’ CCW permits are limited to handguns).
Nor is it illegal to sell a homemade gun — PROVIDED that when you made it, you did not have the INTENT to transfer it (sell, give, trade, etc.) to someon else, and provided that BEFORE you do transfer it, you apply the ATF-required markings (basically, you would have to mark it the same way a homemade registered NFA fiream is marked — your name, the city.county and state it was made in, and a serial number that YOU have not used for another gun you have personally made, manufactured, or imported). ATF even has issued an official determination letter on how to LEGALLY sell a homebuilt gun. (Remember, it’s the “intent” you had when you “aquired” it — just as the intent you have when you BUY a gun from an FFL must be for personal use, but you can later sell a gun you do not want. Same rules on intent apply.)
8-gauge is a recognized (if obsolete and now generally illegal for HUNTING, shotgun chambering), so an 8-gauge homebuilt shotgun, even an ugly-assed one that looks like a cane or crutch would likely meet the shotgun exemption to being classified as an NFA Destructive Device.
Sigvald — I think you are thinking of AOWs (Any Other Weapons), which ARE NFA firearms that need an approved Form 1 before you can build them.
But AOW only applies to “concealable” guns that DO NOT meet the NFA definitions of a “rifle” (16″ bbl + 26″ OAL), “shotgun” (18″ bbl + 26″ OAL), Short Barrelled Rifle (bbl <16" and/or OAL <26", and is not a "pistol" or "revolver"), Short Barrelled Shotgun (bbl <18" and/or OAL <26", and is not a "pistol" or "revolver"), pistol, revolver, Machinegun, Silencer, or Destructive Device.
If a gun can be defined into ANY of the other categories, it CANNOT be defined as an AOW. If Mick meets the overall length AND barrel length for a regular old (Title I, aka, "non-NFA") shotgun, it isn't an AOW. Unless ATF specifically calls out the design as a "Destructive Device" (which they have only done to a handful of high capacity shotguns like teh Streetsweeper), it's just an ugly assed shotgun. (And if they DO become aware of and define 8-gauge single shot shotguns as DDs, he'd THEN have to either register it as such or surrender it to ATF — either method being legal and consequence free.)
I've been floating around the homemade firearms world (and more importantly, the legalities applying to them) for eleven or twelve years. There is a LOT of panicky, fear-driven misinformation.
You can make NFA as long as you pay for the stamp first. If it’s not NFA, it must generally “look” like a firearm–: L-shaped for handgun (when in use. It can fold closed), and a cane must have a stock and a trigger that drops down. I would double check with ATF on just what they’d want the cane to look like in use as a firearm.
But yes, zip guns are completely legal under fed law.
Youtubey no embeddee.
Links there though, so alls good.
Sometimes I like to see what I’m clicking into when I’m at work, yanno? 😀
If you click through to the video, you will see that embedding has been turned off by the uploader.
“Embedding disabled by request”
Hell if you (allegedly) know what you;re doing it might be (allegedly) possible to (allegedly) build an (allegedly) functional explosive launcher out of (allegedly) 10 bux of crap from the hardware store, and another 10 bux of crap form teh supermarket. The Farmer’s friend when it allegedly comes to allegedly removing alleged tree stumps form a field
(allegedly) It is possible to make a (allegedly) viable high explosive from $15 worth of (allegedly) common materials found in a grocery store. (allegedly) Your only problem after is the detonator, which (allegedly) can be made from more (allegedly) common materials.
Cut to the chase: With basic welding skills, a man made fully-functional *tank* – and destroyed a lot of property without actually *needing* additional firearms (though he had some) (Granby, CO).
Basically, anyone with some brains and some basic skills can make any number of devices which if used incorrectly can hurt a lot of people.
The mentality behind gun control is basically ‘head-in-the-sand.’ Or maybe it’s ‘head-up-backside.’
Ah, Killdozer. NEVAR FORGET.
Awesome. Corrupt politicians deserve it.
no, those come form the grocers too, allegedly just a matter of allegedly understanding combustion temperatures and ignition sources properly.
The only weapon you have is between your ears. Everything else is just an accessory-
It’s already been here? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Va87gB_4AI
Gun control exists because idiot politicians want to do SOMETHING for the children,
And they want / need more power over the citizen.
They purely hate the idea of another American revolution to get the parasites off our backs.
I hazard a guess that the pipe won’t stand up too well to a couple of rifled 8 gauge shotgun shells being put through it.
I think any gun control legislation has to be based on a pragmatic assessment of the circumstances in which it would be deployed, which in the USA would include:
1) accounting for the enormous numbers of weapons already in circulation,
2) the long-standing constitutional right to own weapons,
3) the ease with which weapons can be purchased from non-legal sources.
To me, those conditions suggest that any meaningful effort to seriously cut down on the number of firearms out there will at best actually just turn a huge number of previously law-abiding citizens into criminals, without actually making any meaningful difference of the sort that might have been intended.
I’ve always lived in countries where gun ownership is substantially restricted (and has been for a long period) – and I think that in those countries, gun control can work – but will still have some issues because, well, if there’s demand someone will supply (as London’s issue with gun crime between rival gangs demonstrates…).
The rising ease of production of non-metal guns is something that seems to have escaped the notice of a lot of legislators. Not just the retarded 3d-printed peashooter nonsense that got attention last year, but things like ceramic guns – capable of being machined to an equivalent level as commercially retailed weapons yet being invisible to metal detectors, etc.
Overall, I still think the best possible option for effective gun control is the one Chris Rock joked about – let people own guns, and charge people $5K for a bullet 😀
people will just make their own bullets.
Making bullets is dead-easy. Making propellant isn’t much harder.
The problem with this is that we were making fairly fast-firing rifles during the civil war which took cartridges made of paper and bullets you can easily cast on your own. They’re not semi auto, but with a little practice you can fire at quite a steady clip.
It also has to account for the submissiveness of the population. An estimated (forgot the number but i remember the ratio) 1mill guns were imported in the years leading up to Aus’s gun by back in 1996. Around 1/4-1/2 of those were handed in. That was just imports alone, not firearms made in country by lithgow (thales) and other companies along with the millions probably imported before the records. The gov said nothing about it at the time and gun owners who wanted to continue the sport but didn’t need the hardware got a great profit from the buy back. Then they bought rifles they could use but were easy to licence.
People with no clue however sent their grandfather’s SMLEs that had seen 2 world wars and was in perfect nick and their bring backs to the scrap heap along with all the air rifles which now came under the law. In the videos of the crushing I would estimate that about 1/3 of those were about to become almost impossible to own.
Years later SKSs and various other semis are being found in clean ups for natural disasters and in farm paddocks. Alot of guns still stayed in private hands. Bikies (the new targets for the gov) are still running around with them.
Buy backs don’t work for anything other than giving the gov a bunch of debt they need to deal with.
As far as those ceramic guns go, and i am not an authority on this, but i would hazard a guess that (allegedly) that hobby store clay with some other thigns thrown in could (allegedly) hold pressure from something like (allegedly) a handgun cartridge.
But im just blowing smoke out my ass here.
About DIY firearms: I see the argument used a lot, but it seems most people who use it have never tried actually building one. Yeah, most people could make a horrid pipe gun if they really wanted to, but how many could do something that could actually be used in a fight such as the Luty SMG? This is more something that could be made in an illegal shops then sold to people… And if you can buy a crappy SMG from shady guys, you might as well get a real firearm.
You only use DIY weapons if you absolutely cannot get a real one that suits your needs.
Or if you are a gun nut and do it for fun ^^
Any number of nations have demonstrated that you can make a perfectly functional *real* firearm – and even useful anti-tank weapons – in a home setting. Take a look, for instance, at the M3 “Grease” Gun SMG – Stamped sheet metal and pipe. And the sheet metal can be formed by processes OTHER than your basic arbor press (hammer-and-punch, for instance), if you don’t have an arbor press handy (Arbor presses of the right capacity can be had for under US$100). All that’s required is a bit of patience, and some trial-n-error practice.
And the ‘Grease’ Gun is a Cadillac example of the art. If you’re willing to go more crude, you can make fully-functional firearms with much less work.
An improvised firearm, used correctly, can lead to you owning a shiny new full-auto rifle. Liberator style, you feel me?
That’s kind of the point of the argument, though.
The wicked folks who cause almost all “gun violence” are criminals, who will happily buy black market guns that criminal groups (that is to say, gangs and mobs) will happily produce or smuggle.
(Making a “nice” one is, as you say, another matter for the hobbyist, though plenty of home metal-workers could make something useful for defensive or recreational shooting.
My personal spin on that argument is that it’s significantly easier, if you’re going that route from scratch, to make an open-bolt sub-gun than a nice semi-auto pistol or carbine; buzz-guns don’t need to worry about disconnectors and can just have a fixed firing pin. )
Two key points here.
First, smuggling. The quantity of illegal drugs imported into the US per year is dizzying. Estimates for it are all over the map, but US Customs reports around 135,000lb of cocaine seized per year. (More than 4 million pounds of marijuana seized, although I don’t know how much of that was grown inside the US; the cocaine is all imported.) Even if you assume that’s a huge chunk of cocaine imports (hint: it isn’t), that’s an awful lot of bulky, smelly, undifferentiated material that makes it through, and an awful lot of 2lb handguns could make it through in the same fashion.
Second, it’s often misunderstood what makes a gun easy or hard to make. An accurate semi-auto (or revolver, or bolt-action, etc) is difficult. A smoothbore, fixed-firing-pin, shoot-’til-it’s-empty submachine gun is easy (eg, Sputter Gun). A smoothbore short-barrel shotgun is even easier. Which would you prefer to be shot with: 2 9mm rounds, 20 9mm rounds, or a 12ga shell of 00 buck? Hint: you might actually survive the first one.
This is all assuming you could ban all guns outright. If you can’t, the most likely gun to be used in crimes will continue to be “whatever can be easily acquired,” just as it is today.
During WWII, the French Resistance manufactured Sten-pattern submachine guns every place they could get access to basic machinery. Including one bicycle shop that produced over 200 submachine guns during the war while still being a bicycle shop. We are not talking one-shot zip guns, here. We are talking a perfectly serviceable, somewhat reliable, *actually quite accurate* 9mm fully-automatic weapon that starts life as pipes and sheet metal.
The reality is, a recoil-operated, open-bolt (sub-)machine gun (+- belt fed) only has a handful of parts that need to be made to an “acceptable” degree of precision for it to work quite well. Even rifling is not that impossible (just lots of time) if you have a basic idea of how to do it. Not to mention that diagrams are readily available to anyone with an internet connection.
There’s *no* way to put the genie back in the bottle.
http://amodestpublication.wordpress.com/tag/homemade/
Doesn’t seem to be too hard.
OK, I’ll bite – what’s illegal about what Mick’s doing (assuming the barrel is > 18″ which is not completely obvious from the drawings)?
You don’t need to “get a permit” to make a Title I firearm for your own personal use.
Shorter barrel.
More correctly, Larger than a 10 gauge, (not legal for hunting nationwide, and some locale’s ban large gauge shotguns period) as well as the “short” pipe and potentially “cane gun” or failure to “look like a gun” style of the weapon, all of which could be used to argue it is a “destructive device” or “AOW” (Any other Weapon) controlled under the Gun Control Act(s) of 1968 and/or 1934 and at the least requiring ATF approval and payment of a $200 tax stamp for the creation and again any future transfers of the weapon. (Pure horse shit, but that’s the law currently and sadly the loons at the Supreme Court have decided “shall not be infringed” really means sometimes it is ok to infringe if it is scary or non-military, or something we don’t agree with enough…)
It can only be an AOW _if_ it is “readily concealable”, which means in all practicality, “shorter than 26″ overall”. (And keep in mind — a pistol-gripped Mossberg 500 with an 18″ barrel which has never had a stock installed is still a Title I gun. Not an AOW, not an SBS, technically, not even a shotgun. . . )
even though 8-guage is banned _for_hunting_ in every US jurisdicion I am aware of, it is still considered (last I checked) a ‘sporting” shotgun shell. Therefor, NOT automatically a DD. It would take the ATF to formally classify a single shot 8-guage as a DD for that to apply.
Of course, if it has a barrel under 18″, it’s a Short Barrelled Shotgun or AOW (depending on whether it has ever had a shoulder stock of any sort installed).
Making a gun for personal use (as long as you don’t sell it and can legally own a firearm) is actually legal. Ever heard of 80% lower cr? Or better yet, this Messiah of a fabricator who made an AK 47 out of a shovel.
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DIY-Shovel-AK-photo-tsunami-warning!
What Mick’s doing is legal, as long as there aren’t any TX laws I don’t know about.
*receiver
Ah, yes… Boris. Funny guy and I love his posts. Why is it that immigrants tend to see so much more clearly where we’re fucking up what was once a wonderful nation?
That build was awesome.
*Respect.*
No, Mick’s gun is NOT going to be legal under Federal or TX law, because the barrel appears to be under 18″ and not rifled. If he started with the wreckage of a 45LC or 45ACP barrel which is still rifled, he’d be fine in TX and most states. To my knowledge only California bans .410 rifled handguns (like the Taurus Judge) as “short barrel shotguns”.
For some reason I was thinking .410, forgot about the 8ga part. Sigh.
My comment is assuming his smoothbore gun will have an 18″ barrel. As long as it is 18″, he’s good. Otherwise, yeah, NFA laws apply.
For arguments sake, how in the hell can you tel that’s shorter than 18″, this is a cartoon!? There is no way of perspective for how far that barrel extends under his palm, in the first clip of this comic.
And while we’re on the subject of Russians building awesome stuff out of shovels…
http://shovellica.com/
I had some visitor at Jamestown say that at least with matchlocks, you can’t have mass shootings. I replied that I’d seen a totally idiotic anti ad about a guy trying to do a public shooting with a musket, implying it was impossible. Then mentioned that it took me about 30 seconds to figure out how to do it, at any of 3 different centuries’ tech level. He said, “We’ll agree to disagree.”
I thought, “Don’t piss off the visitor, don’t piss off the visitor….” and refrained from saying, aloud, “Ah, but there’s a difference between your opinion and mine. I KNOW WTF I’M TALKING ABOUT.”
The Jamestown event is an educational event. You should definitely have educated him.
I tried — I did say that it could be accomplished with a brace of pistols, a blunderbuss, sword, and haversack of grenades. He said “You can’t conceal that under a trenchcoat”, and I said, “You don’t have to.” Is where I might could’ve scored with “And I actually know what I’m talking about”.
I was under the impression that it is completely legal to make your own guns as long as the gun is in compliance with all other laws like overall length and barrel length. The only thing I could guess with Mick’s gun is that the barrel is not at least 18″, which is what I think it has to be for a shotgun.
Because it looks like a cane – that’s what makes it an AOW.
Ahhh…no, you can build a gun that looks “odd” as long as it isn’t “disguised”. If Mick sets this up with an 18″ smoothbore barrel then he also needs to put enough receiver and stock length to make the 26″ overall minimum. Doesn’t have to be a full shoulder stock.
AOW only applies to “readily concealable” (i.e., “short”) guns. remember, the HK MP5K briefcase only makes an SP89 an “AOW” because the SP89 is a HANDGUN (and thus, “readily concealable”).
PLENTY of perfectly legal single shot shotguns (and rifles) built that look like canes or crutches. Because once the overall length and barrel hits “regular” rifle and shotgun minmums, it isn’t “readily concealable” under the NFA.
Many long years ago, when I was still a young’un, the gangs of that day, mostly teens, were making and using .22 caliber pistols out of automobile radio antennae. They were called “zip guns”. From what I remember, it is a wonder those things didn’t blow up more than they did. While automobile antennae are now pretty hard to find, I would imagine that there are other types of pipe available that would do just as well.
Bottom line: The gubmint could conceivably confiscate and destroy every firearm in the country. If that happened, there would always be those who could, and would, make their own and the ammunition for them.
I think the problem with what he’s making there is the fact that it’s 8 gauge. Meaning it’s bigger than .50 cal. Which brings the ATF into the picture to decide if it has sporting use or not. Otherwise it’s a destructive device for which he needs to get the tax stamp IF I’M NOT MISTAKEN.
.50 cal only comes into play when it involves a single bullet fired from a cartridged casing. Black powder and shotgun ammunition doesnt fall in that category.
Firing factory-loaded shotgun ammo? Yeah, the ‘sporting gun’ argument is already won. Though I think the *real* sport will be watching what happens to Mick when he fires it.
Did someone say “A piece of pipe”?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOSjOju7g1g
There are too many machine shops. While the M3 Grease Gun is a fine example of a partisan’s weapon, nigh unto any CNC shop could manufacture just about any firearm prior to Glock, and some designed afterwards.
I read quite a bit of this thread, and now I’m going to just say one thing:
Prisoners in US high security prisons have built working guns.
Let me repeat that: prisoners in US JAILS have built guns many, many times.
Not just crappy match-powered zip guns firing nails (and those work fine) but actual working firearms that shoot real bullets.
They have built MACHINE GUNS in at least two cases. One prisoner worked on machine guns in prison for the government during WWII, because everyone wanted to put his skills to a decent use instead of getting out.
It is really very, very easy.
If someone under 24 hour continual watch in a PRISON can do it and not get caught, why is anyone pretending it is difficult to do, and why are they wasting time trying to ban guns?
At some point if you’re modifying an existing gun, if you mod it past a certain point it is legally a homebrew gun. My own “Maurice” hit that point and then some when I changed the caliber at both the barrel and cylinder:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/03/03/maurice-frankenruger-magazine-fed-revolver/
That’s my daily carry piece!
🙂
That shit still trips me out.
Haha! [[strike]]Resistance[[/strike]] Gun control is futile!
The government will even tell you how to do it (among other things), with a little book: TM 31-210 “Improvised Munitions Handbook” (Hi NSA guys!)
Firearm technology is centuries old. It simply isn’t hard for us to replicate. Another advantage is modern tools – Horace Smith and Daniel Wesson started their company with less than what I have available, and I am no machinist.
What are you talking about its tottaly legal to build your own gun long as its not automatic in some states you dont even need to register it (mine you do but not every state)
Your central premise that it is “illegal to make your own gun” is false. It is perfectly legal to make your own firearm, for your own personal use, without any specific ATF permission.
That said, this does not mean you make firearms that require Tax Stamps/ATF registration without first obtaining that permission from the ATF.
So, while Mike’s shotgun might not be legal, because it has too short a barrel, the central idea that “You can’t make your own guns” is still fales.
Yeah. Friends of mine refused to belive me when i said that given two or three hours and dad´s garage i could whip up a single shot pistol. They belived me even less when i said i could probably make a working SMG if given a propper workshop and a couple of days.
Wasn´t untill i drew up how easy the basic weapon is on paper that they went “Well… crap.”
La la la.. Going for a walk, Jimmy? That’s nice. La la la…
😀
My local hardware store is big enough,I could put Kel-Tec out of business..