Dinner With Dad 9
Let’s go ahead and really flamewar it up in the comments. C’mon, I know some of you have been itching on this one.
Mick is kinda like me when it comes to this kind of thing. I do prefer pistols and shotguns for home defense. If you’re living in an apartment and using an AR-15 for home defense, you’re gonna annoy the shit out of your neighbors if someone breaks in. Same for AK. Yes, I am quite aware of The Box O’ Truth showing that both pistols and shotguns can ALSO overpenetrate sheetrock. But I also load frangible rounds in the .357 by my bed, and would rather take my chances with my Mossberg loaded with Buck and Ball in the event of a home defense situation than either 7.62 or 5.56. I don’t even live in an apartment. I have a brick-walled house.
Now, when it comes down to AK vs AR… I choose the AK. Hear me out.
I’m a lazy fuck. Mel has an AR. Our roommate has an AR. I have neither AK nor AR, but I do have an SKS, which fires the exact same bullet as the AK. Furthermore, the SKS is basically the platform that was the granddaddy of the AK. Given an urban warfare situation (and even as a hardcore survivalist, I know this is highly unlikely), I’d choose my SKS over an AR.
Put simply: The AR feels like a fucking toy to me. It has too many moving parts. It feels like anything could break at any moment. I have fired dozens of both AKs and ARs in my life. ARs jam more. Yes, this is my apocryphal experience. No, I’m sure your AR fires just fine. But I have experienced far, far fewer jams on the AK than the AR platform. The AK is meant to take a beating, fire dirty ammo, and keep on rocking. The AR is a little prissy bitch that jams the moment you get some dirt or crud in the action. Again, my experience, and yours is mileage that may vary.
Cleaning an AK is easier, and, let’s be honest, almost optional. I have one friend who has brought his AK shooting with us for years, and has proudly never cleaned it. It still goes bang, although sometimes you have to really slap the mag in or it will misfeed that first round. Cleaning an AR requires, comparatively, the equivalent of cleaning a Swiss watch.
When it comes to long-distance accuracy, the AR wins, hands down, beyond 200 yards. But so fucking what? Unless I’m hunting with one, getting MOA groups at 1000 yards won’t ever, ever matter to me. Hell, I have never hunted an animal at that range. All of my hunting kills were at closer than 400 yards. Yeah, if you’re in a war zone, that kind of accuracy can matter. But I’m not in a war zone. I live in suburbia. And even if TSHTF, and I was stuck defending my house in social collapse urban warfare, I wouldn’t need 1000 yard accuracy. Hell, my street is only 200 yards long, and we’re in the middle of it. I could probably defend my house with my goddamn Mossberg, as long as I had some slugs.
Also: I am NOT a fan of the Uzi. I am not a fan of open-bolt full auto subs in general. Got to have fun in the desert with a full-auto Uzi when I was 19. My limited experience has been that the fuckers kick like a mule with a jackhammer, and accuracy is crippled when firing one. EXTREMELY hard to control.
Let’s get it on in the comments!
Damn Israelis get all the fun in their desert shithole. Try lubricating your weapon with the blood of Albanian or Italian in the middle of winter and you’ll have a failure to fire soon enough.
Have you tried substituting the blood of a member of government? Extremely low co-efficient of friction (they’re *really* slick), but be careful – It stains.
It still freezes shut when the temperatures drop.
“It still freezes shut when some whiny cunts don’t get their way and decide to take everyone else in the country down in flames with them.”
There, fixed that for yo- . . . wait, what? What were we talking about again?
I own an SGL 21 and a Russian SKS. Never had a single problem out of either one (besides shitty Chinese SKS stripper clips not wanting to feed the rounds in smoothly while dropping rounds out when you look at it the wrong way). Russian guns are stupid tough and reliable, and in my 2 guns about 2-3 MOA so not too inaccurate, easily hitting man sized targets up to a couple hundred yards. I want to buy an AR 15, still dont know if I want a 16 inch or 20 inch barrel, I know 20 inches look better to me, and they squeeze more performance out of the anemic .223 where velocity is THE game. but the other point of the AR 15 is being light weight, so if I strap on a 8 pound upper a 3~ pound lower iron sights or maybe a sight of some sort I may as well just carry my SGL… I just know I had fun when I shot the AR at the range, so I want one now… lol I have never really heard anyone complain about UZI’s being hard to control… then Again I can shoot an M44 mosin like a handgun if I use both hands so…ya, different abilities for different people. that girl in the video was a god damn imbecile, I hope for her sake it is a bad act.
Dude.. Uzis are NOTORIOUSLY unreliable and difficult to control.
They’re great for making a lot of noise and indiscriminately spraying an area with bullets (And more seriously, pretty good for urban warfare because of their size) but they are not even close to “Assault Rifle” specs.
we used to say that when you squeeze an Uzi’s trigger you can be pretty sure it’s going to fire, but whether it’s going to stop firing when you lift your finger is entirely uncertain.
are you thinking of an UZI or A MAC 11? Uzi with a stock isnt too bad from what I have seen.
Psst! Adam was in the IDF, and lives in Israel. I seriously would HOPE he can identify and speak of firing an Uzi.
During the “weapon familiarization” day during my tour in the Swedish army, EI get to know weapons you might have to handle if war happens, i got to handle (not fire) both an M-16 and an AK. IMO, the M-16 felt like it was going to break if i squeezed to hard. Now i´m sure it´s more sturdy and reliable than that, but it still didn´t feel like something i would pick up if i had another option. The AK was pretty much a brick, felt like i could probably jam it into a tanks track and jam it, but it weighted every gram of that robustness.
Now, for the Uzi i have only handled a replica so i can´t say about the recoil or reliability, but i do have a large experience with another open bolt SMG, namely the Carl Gustaf m/45 B, or the Swedish K if you will. The thing is heavy for an SMG, but it is supremely reliable (stovepipes or tries to doublefeed every now and then) and has very smooth and light recoil from memory, and that was using the realy “hot” 9mm load it used. If you ever get a chance to try it out on a range, go for it, i´m pretty sure you will find it a delight to shoot.
Well, for being a open bolt blowback SMG i mean. 🙂
On a sidenote, should you find any ammo that was intended for the m/45B, for the love of Gord, don´t use it in pistols. The thing would qualify as at least a +p round, and there was incidents where older pistols developed cracks in the mechanism to the point of spitting parts back in the face of the shooter. Also, i think it was forbidden by law to import it to the US due to it´s inherant light armorpiercing capacity. (Yes, some of the earlier bullet resistant vests could actualy be penetrated by this round. Doubt it could do it with a modern one though.)
Way, way back, when I was in basic, one of the first things the instructor said before we went to the range the first time was to never butt-stroke anyone with an M-16, or you’d end up with an M-16 club. Second thing he demonstrated was that the weapon would fire if you slapped the stock. I was issued 4 individual rifles during the time I was in, and they would all do it.
Before anyone starts, like I said, it was a long time agoe, and from what I’ve seen, it’s not true of them now.
No comment on the AR vs AK thing, other than at multigun matches, if someone brings an AK, it tends to show equal amounts of issues when compared to ARs.
I just wanted to mention that while the Uzi isn’t even remotely useful for anything at a distance, I didn’t find it hard to manage, even though I’ve only shot one once. True, the one I shot had a wooden stock on it, which I’m sure helped—but it was easy to keep it on target. (Surprisingly so.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysy26TDsoe0
(Without the stock, I’m sure it would have been worse.)
Frangible rounds for sheetrock huh? Do some more research, frangible munitions was created mostly for Naval Operations since they are full steel environments, the rounds will break apart on impact with steel instead of ricochet. That being said, they are not some magical bullet that will prevent little Timmy across the street from getting shot in the face through the wall. If the cards say its gonna overpenetrate and kill your neighbor, its gonna overpenetrate. When frangible munitions hits steel…. it breaks apart. Invented to reduce the likelihood of ricochets in full steel environments, not protect your neighbors. If you want a round to penetrate less, use lighter ammunition. This will hamper the weapons effective penetration depth. For home defense pistols I recommend the .45. It has a habbit of expanding larger and slowing down faster, aka it does not penetrate as deeply as 9mm, .40, or .357. Don’t believe me, googlefu frangible ammunition. Unfortunately its not a magic anti accidentally kill your neighbor round.
I shot both the UZI(fullzide) and the S&W version of the Swedish K. Uzi sucks in ergonomics and controllability. Swedish K is more controlable with it’s heavy chugging bolt.
I own both a phillips screw driver and a flat screw driver. The right tool for the right job, I always say. And lots of tools in the tool chest is the way to go.
My Mosin Nagant M44 is a great choice too. If the muzzle blast doesn’t knock them down and start them on fire, you can stab them with the bayo, then beat them to death with the stock. LOLZ
Mosin is best rifle!
JL, I’m with ya on home defense. I like the advice Mick gave Heidi way back when — a 20ga shotgun. I’d probably load it to shoot 2 rds of birdshot, then 2 rds of buckshot, then a slug. And I can clobber the guy with it if he gets too close.
The civilians who need battle carbines are shopkeepers facing civil unrest, such as during the Rodney King riots. The shopkeepers who had AKs and the like just had to be on site and visible, and the looters left their stores in peace. I doubt a revolver would have had the same deterrent effect, in that situation. A pump or semiauto shotgun might, cos nobody wants to be the first to catch a load of buckshot from a 12ga.
I’ve had both an SKS and a Colt AR. I’d retrofitted the SKS with a nylon stock and a 0.25″ aperture sight, and it had a loop over the front post, not wings around it. I looked through those, and it pointed as naturally as can be. I wish I’d never sold it. I have never missed my AR.
Another one on the Mosin bandwagon here. When I first got mine, I got two of them – I figured, one for use, one for parts. We had a struggle with the bayonets until we got them adjusted by a gunsmith (they weren’t fitted properly at first) – the funny thing was, I didn’t cut myself in the struggle to get them on and off. My husband, though? Glanced down during struggling and went ‘that’s funny, what’s this red wet stuff on i- OH’.
My Eastern European blood? Not a problem. His Germanic blood? Tasty tasty stuff to the Mosin.
LOL, that’s awesome. Not so awesome for your husband, of course.
I love my 91/30, but not for home defense. I mean… If I was defending my home from a dangerous threat 2km away, it’d be great (it has the sights for it, after all), and the thing certainly has “intimidating” going for it (especially with bayonet fixed), but in close-quarters battle I think I’d take almost anything else. It would make a fine club, though, I guess. M44 would be a LITTLE bit better, but still not exactly the top of the list. (I can think of more than a few pistols I’d take it over, though.)
Actually, that’s 2000 arshins, which translates to roughly 1400 meters.
Only original 91s, Dragoons, and Cossacks used arshins. Starting with the 91/30, the sights were graduated in hundreds of meters.
CETME/G3 platform over both either AK or AR. I dunno, never really cared for either of them. It could be the rounds though. I’d been looking at an AR and Ak platform for a bit, but now that i think about it, reason i liked them was because they were .308.
True, true. G3 and FAL are winners as far as I’m concerned.
I have an AR (a Smith MP-15), and it’s a damn good rifle, but the points about 5.56 being relatively weak and the platform itself being a high-maintenance bitch are valid.
CETME, here. Although I do also have a couple of SKSs and an AR15. And an SU16.
Yeah, but the 7.65s are BATTLE rifles, not assault rifles. Apart from that I agree.
Meanwhile, AKs are for Commies, JL. Are you a COMMIE???
😉
Did somebody mention 7.65 and I didn’t see it?
7.65? What is that, some esoteric bullshit?
Heh. Sorry. 7.62
Its cool, sometimes I type my 2s upside down too.
Commies don’t do much else right but they build damn fine guns. Have you ever seen how many inspection marks are on a Russian SKS? They made them right but it’s no wonder their economy went to crap.
I love the low tech/high effectiveness aspect of the AK and I prefer KISS engineering for all my tools. Plus I hate cleaning guns, so it’s AK for me.
I completely disagree that a pistol or a shotgun is better for home defense. A shotgun will have pellets that will spread out (not much, but still), and a pistol just isn’t as accurate as a rifle. With a rifle, I have MUCH better control of where the rounds are going, and the 5.56 round of an AR will penetrate less.
And I prefer the AR over the AK because the ergonomics feel better. I’ve never had a jam with my ARs, and I don’t really clean them or lube them up all that much. Accuracy IS important to, even in an urban combat. I might need to take someone down at 200 yards. And I want the best tool for the job- the AR.
I think there are different aspects of home defense being discussed. If you live in a mansion, yeah, maybe a rifle is what you need, but if like most of us you don’t have any rooms with dimensions surpassing 10-20 yards, I think a pistol and a shotgun will suffice at those ranges.
Nope, in any situation a rifle is better. I live in a small townhouse- with penetration to worry about. A 5.56 will penetrate less than pistol rounds or shotgun shells.
If I had to worry about home defense, I would have one of several revolvers that can fire .45 colt or .410 shells. It is the pistol equivalent of the BFG. It is simple and looks as persuasive as anything Clint Eastwood ever carried.
Home defense is a 12g mossy every time. Ive got 2, one loaded with birdshot and one with PDX defender rounds. Odds are I’ll use the birdshot inside the house. i have a brick house but my kid and roommate are only protected by drywall. A close second is my Judge, loaded with 3 pdx defender rounds and 2 45lc rounds.
Damn, not a single Israel vs Palestine comment? M’laird, your readership is either maturing, or becoming troll-resistant. 😀
Meh, the Israel vs Arabs conflict is so passe right now.
I have tens of thousands of rounds downrange with AR platform rifles (courtesy of Uncle Sam) and a good number (although considerably less as I was footing the bill) through my AK’s. As for my personal experience, I prefer the AK. AR’s are an order of magnitude more finicky once any type of foreign matter is introduced into the action, be that sand, mud, excessive carbon fouling, etc. I have personally witnessed more than one M16 jam so badly that it could not be cleared in the field. When it comes to what I want in a combat rifle, in my opinion, reliability trumps all else. I need to know that it will go bang every single time, no matter what manner of sadistic abuse I have subjected it to. It doesn’t matter if I trip, fall, bounce it off a tree, two rocks, and land it in a mud puddle with me on top of it, I know that my AK is still going to go bang when I squeeze the trigger. Do I honestly think I will ever need that kind of reliability? No. Do I honestly think I will ever need that fire extinguisher in my kitchen either? No. Better safe than sorry.
After carrying a AR for 27 years for both work, and now that I’m retired for recreation (3 gun), I believe I’m well armed and intimately familiar with manipulation of the AR for home defense. That’s why it’s beside my bed. It’s also equipped with a Surefire 556-212 suppressor and X300 light. A suppressor is definitely something everyone should consider for the firearm that they could be shooting in an enclosed area. Don’t learn the hard way! Having EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE in your ears for the rest of your life sucks! Believe me on this!
I’m somewhat amused by the many comments about the way a weapon “feels” – go out get training with the weapon. If the AR is so fragile it probably wouldn’t have been our main battle rifle for so many years. Don’t base your choices solely on feelings. That’s what the people that oppose our 2nd Amendment base their arguments on. Not facts.
All that being said in favor of the AR, use what you got, have a plan and get training. If you have a pointy stick and the knowledge in how to effectively use it you’re ahead of the curve of the person that has a 240B machine gun and no skill with its use or manipulation. It also helps to have a hell of a lot of luck on your side!
Stay safe all!
I still find it silly that we can’t have a suppressor on our firearms here in the US, but it is just about required on rifles in the UK.
As for AR/AK feel, there is some validity to how it feels. My girl dressed up her AR in wood to get a better feel for comfort. For me, the way a weapon feels in my hands will determine how much I enjoy shooting with it. The more I enjoy shooting with it, the more accurate I’ll be with it. The AR is MEANT to feel lighter than the AK. That’s how it was designed. Less weight means you can carry more ammo. Not to mention there are a TON more optional items for the AR. You can use anything from .22LR to .50 Beowulf. There’s .410 shotgun uppers. There are even 7.62×39 AR uppers if you love the AK ammo. And if you want, you can have a single shot .50BMG upper. Simply put the AR-15 is the most adaptable rifle platform available.
Shotgun for home defense: Load it Bird, 00 buck, slug
“can’t have a suppressor on our firearms here in the US”
wat?
You can ABSOLUTELY have a suppressor on a firearm in the US. All you need is a tax-stamp and to make sure it is registered with the BATF.
Sorry, I meant that suppressors are restricted so tightly. I mean seriously pay an extra 200 bucks wait for the ATF to get off their backsides and approve it, then you can pick it up. I thought the fact that he had one on his AR kinda covered that you could get one. But just going out to the store and buying a suppressor isn’t happening. Generally you buy, send form 4, wait, wait, wait, wait, call, wait, think about anything that might possibly show up, call, wait, APPROVED (YAY!) go pick it up. And it is not legal in all states, especially in occupied territory(CA, NJ, NY, HI, MA, MN, RI, VT).
Not to mention the fact they tend to run well over a grand each.
In New Zealand we have licenses etc so I can’t just go out and buy a gun. However, I can buy a silencer even without any license. A quick look at prices for one local store puts them about 350-600 converted to usd, the upper end being titanium. And you can just go pick it up, or even have it sent out.
/troll
I looked up NZ’s guns-what-are-OK-to-import list as part of an idle plan to emigrate. All of mine except the AR are kosher.
*sob*
In my limited experience, the AR vs. AK arguments are based on older, outdated examples. Modern ARs have the tolerances loose enough that they fire just fine dirty. Modern AKs have the tolerances tightened up to the point that they are pretty accurate shooters. They’re just about interchangeable for that at this point. If you run over each with a truck, you’ll break an AR receiver where you can bend an AK back into service. The AR has great ergonomics where the AK has no ergonomics unless you have tentacles like an octopus. I’m an AR owner, but I’m certainly not opposed to AKs. In today’s market, either one is a rip off, as the parts and labor to build a good example of either shouldn’t command more than $400 – $500. I would seriously consider picking up an SKS. And, just to up the ante on flame fodder: I would take either an 03 Springfield or M14 over an M1 Garand any day of the week. Because sometimes I don’t want to shoot exactly eight times.
Ah, the old myth. The Garand can be reloaded mid-clip; a button on the left side of the receiver ejects the clip and any remaining cartridges. It’s not as easy as a detachable box magazine, certainly, but it’s not impossible (except in video games). I’d agree with taking the M14 over the Garand (and the US Army agreed, too), but I’d take either over the Springfield for a whole host of reasons.
Is there an argument in favor of the Garand over the M14? (Other than that a Garand is much easier to get hold of as a civilian.) All I’m coming up with is if somehow 7.62 NATO doesn’t cut it but .30-06 does, and I’m having a hard time picturing that.
.30-06 round has slightly better long-range ballistics than 7.62 NATO. That’s the only real bennie in my book, and it’s a pretty thin one at that.
Okay, I’m cool with any of the guns mentioned… but the crack about using “Palestinian Blood” as a lubricant is vulgar and rude. The hate and rage of two conflicting faiths has been by ignorant assholes that are fighting over a strip of dirt because of some “sky father” says it’s “holy land” is a crock of shit!
> but the crack about using “Palestinian Blood” as a lubricant is vulgar and rude.
Uh, yes. Yes, it is.
Heh. I saw what you did, there.
What’s vulgar and rude is the fact they’re still keeping up the argument hundreds and thousands of years later over a shitty piece of property. If it was nice tropical jungles and beaches, or primo lush farmland I could understand, but desert…..?
Just don’t use Yassir Arafat blood to lube up your Uzi. It’s either a bio-hazard or a nuke-hazard, depending on which conspiracy theory of his death you buy into.
It’s because it happens to be on the largest oil and natural gas reserve on that side of the planet. Roughly 4 Quadrillion Tonnes of both NG and Sweet Light Crude are there to be harvested. The NG runs from the top edge near Haifa to Tripoli, Lebanon. Why do you think that the Saudis and Israelis are so keen on the USA being their lackeys to invade these nation states of Syria, Lebanon, Iran, etc. Because of the resources there and place the blame on the USA to avoid backlash by the Shiites and other Muslims living there. We’re bringing “democracy” there by capitalism invasion and that the AIPAC and other fascist fuckers are making us being their mercenary whores for hire.
The only viable answer to AR vs. AK is M1A
Not M14? Or Saiga .308?
If you can find and afford a select fire, NFA registered M14, then of course that would be ideal. With the new synthetic stocks, the old issues the M14 had in Vietnam no longer occur so there’s no reason to consider that commie crap.
Frankly, full-auto in an M-14 is a waste – waste of cash buying it, and waste of cash and shots firing it. It’s DAMNED hard to control it on auto. If you *really* want a rifle-shaped LMG, go whole-hog and spend your inheritance on a BAR.
Actually the AR-15 has one of the least number of moving parts in any semi-automatic rifle with regards to its function. The only thing that could possibly be simpler is a blowback operated rifle or machine gun. The AR-15 totally lacks a piston assembly making it inherently simpler than any piston operated gun AK, SKS, M1A ect. So the only thing that moves is the bolt, which is why it’s so accurate. But simple != more reliable.
open bolt submachine guns are so cool with their asininely high rates of fire http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eTEPSjOu8M “here hold my beer”
For some reason this the Yemen gagnam AK party video.
The most lethal weapon I aim and fire is a squirt bottle at the cats. It rarely achieves the intended purpose.
Our little cat reacts to squirt bottles as desired. Our big cat (smallish Maine Coon) puts his ears back, faces straight at the bottle, squints his eyes, and thinks “bring it, bitch!” When it’s done being brought, he goes right back to what he’d been doing.
Our big cat is a stubborn brat.
Get a SuperSoaker water pistol. They’re a hell of a lot more accurate at 5 yards. The only trouble is you gotta keep ’em pressurized, but I have that problem with a lot of squirt bottles, too.
AR vs AK? Simple. The only correct answer is “Shut up and take what you shoot best.” Or, “Both.”
Or, which can you afford to shoot the most. And you can still get an AK and about 1000 rounds for it for what you’ll lay out for an AR
Anecdotal, not apocryphal.
AR? AK? SKS, Be-yotches.
So there.
I lament I have only shot full-auto once in my life. It was an Uzi. I can no longer look at the front of an Isuzu truck in my review mirror and not think “US UZI”
The dad is SO COOL!
Awesome line about how to properly lubricate a weapon!
It is a fallacy that rifle rounds always penetrate more than pistol rounds. It’s physics, small projectiles traveling extremely fast tend to fragment on impact, slower more massive projectiles do not fragment.
You don’t need to look at Box of Truth.
For shotguns and home defense… buckshot or nothing. Slugs are too much and Birdshot is clown shoes. Remember Dick Cheney shot somebody in the face with birdshot and the guy only had a bit of bruising to show for it. If you ever shoot someone, you better mean it, and if you are dicking around with warning shots or birdshot you are living in a fantasy world.
As far as AK vs AR? The M4 style AR rifle of today is a different rifle than the M16 that was first issued in the 60s and which most people refer to to point out reliability issues with the AR platform. Look at the DDM4 torture test video with Larry Vickers if you doubt the reliability of the AR platform.
If you shoot someone at bird hunting ranges, it ain’t home defense. Last person I saw shot at 2o foot with birdshot, I could make a fist and put it all the way through his chest in front, and out his back, right through where his heart had beenh. It ain’t like shooting tubs of jello
> Slugs are too much
This has not been my experience. HP Slugs are goddamned destructive, but tend not to overpenetrate. I hit a gallon jug of gelatin at 20 yards with one. Blew the jug to absolute confetti, but I recovered the slug itself, a foot and a half behind the target. Force was transferred perfectly.
[QUOTE]Remember Dick Cheney shot somebody in the face with birdshot and the guy only had a bit of bruising to show for it.[/QUOTE]
You can’t believe everything a politician’s PR flacks put out…
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cheney_hunting_incident#editor/7
The actual injuries were hella worse than that. The man needed thoracic surgery and several days in critical care- he had HOLES in his chest, face & neck, one of his lungs collapsed and he had a heart attack from pellets lodged in and around his heart. Birdshot at 40 yards makes small holes, but he’d have died quickly enough without medical treatment.
As far as home defense, a shotgun for indoors.
Outdoors, depends on what is going on…
And I’ve had no trouble with the Uzi on full auto, but never shot more than a couple of mags out of one either.
Good call, I had never heard those details that he was injured that badly before.
Best weapon for home defense is what you have that you can get to quickly and use successfully. Everything else is secondary. Maybe highly important secondary – i.e. my Mosin Nagant would put a round through a bad guy, my wall(s), my neighbors walls and maybe the house behind his too. But if it was all I had then I would take the chance…
What do you have for walls, paper mache?
Mosin punches neat round holes through half-inch Inconel (hardened tool steel) and keeps on going. I don’t think soft tissue, sheetrock or thin plywood (our house’s siding) would present much difficulty.
Seriously. We took our Mosins to a decrepit computer one day at the ranch. I hit the hard drive at 30 yards with it, and the fucking thing exploded, with sparks. Looked like a firework going off. The round blasted a hard drive to confetti, punched an exit hole 5″ wide through the back of the case, and left a cantaloupe sized crater in the dirt behind it.
I maintain my stance of “Whatever feels best to you is what you should use”. If AK feels better to you and makes you feel more confident as a shooter, then do it.
You don’t like Glocks? You think a 1911 feels better in your hands? Fuck it, use the Colt!
Regardless of how well the weapon actually performs, if it feels uncomfortable or makes you not feel like it is a part of your body, it is not the right tool for you.
Best answer I’ve seen today. A .22 you can hit what your shooting at is better than a .44 Magnum you can’t handle.
This is why I often note that I’d rather have my Ruger 10/22 for home defense than a weapon I am unfamiliar with. I have been hunting with a 10/22 since I was 14 years old. I have taken down more animals with it than all other calibers, makes, and models COMBINED.
Would it be a fabled One Shot Stop? Probably not. But the 10/22 spits .22 ammo as fast as I can pull the trigger, and mine has a 25 round mag. If I empty that into an attacker, at some point… maybe around the 15th round… he’s going to sit the fuck down and contemplate where he went wrong. It’s a ridiculously accurate weapon that rarely, if ever, jams, and given my choice? It’s my go-to for a survival situation. That or my Mossberg. I would trust either weapon completely with my life.
And that is all that matters. If you would say, “I trust this weapon to work, when my life is on the line”, and it feels right, you can never go wrong.
I can almost guarantee that under stress you are not going to hit him with every round, though. Maybe not even with half of them. Much less all in a vital area. Canned beans and briskets don’t shoot back ( or charge at you, or dodge, or throw stuff, etc ) any more than paper targets do.
OTOH, who knows, you just MIGHT get that one shot stop. All depends on the recipient.
“I can almost guarantee that under stress you are not going to hit him with every round”
What do you base this on?
Ever seen one of those news stories about a shootout? The ones where 40 or 50 rounds were fired and only 8 or 9 made it into the target? That’s the norm.
The literature on the effects of stress and adrenaline on task performance is fairly copious. It’s not optimistic.
““I can almost guarantee that under stress you are not going to hit him with every round”
What do you base this on?”
Go to the link below. The results are NOT the usual “Cops Can’t Shoot” stuff, but you can see that there are some issues. Issues with the data collection, issues with the data *reporting* and issues with police training.
Over all, accuracy is better than generally reported, consistant with circumstances, but even the best police forces were missing one out of every three shots, under best conditions.
Most civilians won’t do any better. Many will do much worse.
Linky:
http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/117909-Study-reveals-important-truths-hidden-in-the-details-of-officer-involved-shootings/
My mother needs to chime in here. In a situation of severe stress, during a horrible home invasion, her accuracy was perfect.
That makes her an outlier. Hell, someone has to define the right side of the bell curve! 😀
A shotgun is a long gun. A big, heavy long gun that is slow to reload and hard to control. There are very few logical arguments in favor of a shotgun over an AR platform. You still have to aim a shotgun, and if there’s two or more assailants you could very quickly be wishing you had more than five (or eight) rounds.
I personally prefer a handgun, because I am better-trained with a handgun and because I have kids and could conceivably need a free hand. I can shoot an assailant at home combat distance with one hand pretty comfortably. With an AR or shotgun… not so much, but an AR much more easily than a shotgun.
Finally, as for penetration/overpenetration, it’s very simple. Any round that will acceptably penetrate an attacker will overpenetrate inside a home. Period. If you want to reduce your risk of overpenetration, and are willing to accept wounds to the bad guy that will not incapacitate him unless he chooses to give up upon being shot (which he might, or might not), then choose a lighter load. Frangible ammo, as others have pointed out, is not the answer.
And as to AK vs AR, I have both and love them both. I’ve had the AK for 14 years and it has never had a single jam or malfunction of any kind. If I could only own one rifle, it would probably have to be that one for that reason. The AR is great, and a lot more accurate than I am, but is complicated.
Yeah, fuck it, I’ll jump into this fight.
I shoot a lot. A good majority of this is NOT at the range, but at a friend’s ranch. I’ve seen what various rounds do to various soft or reactive targets, including (but not limited to) large cans of expired beans, watermelons, a spoiled brisket, and jugs of gelatin.
I am not saying that the 5.56 or the 7.62 are lackluster rounds. They do killer damage. But they also overpenetrate, even hollow point, at 25 yards. They go through and leave holes in the backstop, leave craters in the dirt. No thanks. Not for home defense.
On the other hand: Let me dispel what you seem to assume. We have two Mossbergs: a 590A and a Mav 88. Both have 18.5″ barrels. I have fired each of them one hell of a lot. Her 500 has a buttstock, my Mav has a pistol grip. She also has a Browning Hi-Power Mk 1 (that still shoots HP ammo as cleanly as can be) and I have my 5″ barrel .357. We have tested all four of these guns on soft, reactive targets, vs. the aforementioned military calibers.
There’s no competition. 12 ga rifled slug, or 00 buck, does HELLISH damage at 25 yards without overpenetrating. .357 HP will blow a giant crater in what it hits, and her 9mm with HP does just fine. She’s accurate as hell with that pistol, and that Taurus revolver of mine gives me groupings at 50 yards that are almost as tight as any long gun I’ve used. At 25 yards, 7.62 and 5.56 just pop holes in things with HP ammo, and the cavitation is close to negligent. 12 ga slug blows things to pieces, and the exit wound on a flesh target is awe-inspiring – we hit a spoiled brisket at 20 yards with slug, 3 inches thick of meat, and the exit wound was bigger than my head. The exit on the AR round was about 1.5 inches wide.
If you want to defend your home with a military rifle, fine, but those rifles are not meant for CQB. That’s not what they were designed for. I wouldn’t want to get shot with one, no, but if we have an attacker, I’m reaching for my .357 or my Mossberg.
When discussing the virtues of a scatter-gun versus a black rifle (which, of course, is either an AK or an AR), I like to bring into account the purposes originally intended when the weapon was designed. The AK was designed so that a conscript with only a vague idea of which end goes bang could use it and not need to clean it, and the AR was designed so that the average GI could carry more ammo than Ivan (accuracy by volume and all that jazz).
To me, I would rather fight off a foreign invasion with an AR or AK (or hell, a Mosin is far from the worst choice), but I will take the shotgun that has been proven to be effective for confrontations where you only have time to fire once.
I think an AK/AR COULD be used in those situations, but they are far from excelling.
But then again, I am just some guy on the internet, so forget what I said.
So you choose a pistol or shotgun over an AR or AK because it FEELS better, even though with equal training time (and barring strange disabilities) the AR or AK is hands-down a better option for HD? Okay, so when [uninitiated buyer] wants to choose a .22LR handgun for HD even though there are a plethora of better options, they should not be talked into something more appropriate, right?
Personally, it goes Tavor>AR>AK>Glock/M&P>Beretta 1201FP>whatever else for me. I live in an apartment. I couldn’t pull a 10yd shot in here if I tried. However, the rifle gives me WAY more control. A 9mm, 40, 45, or 12ga load in here will absolutely go into the next apartment or out into the darkness. 5.56, less likely, especially if you don’t miss. Birdshot? Seriously? Birdshot is likely to break the skin, cause some immediate trauma, but you stand a good chance of failing to stop, especially if your assailant is hopped up on anything.
“Anemic” performance from the 5.56 is a misnomer, by and large, particularly if you use a fragmenting (like M193, not frangible) round. M193 fragments in tissue out to about 200m. There’s also Fackler’s research showing the difference in lethality and shots to stop between rifles and handguns, and the instances of soft body armor being worn by violent criminals.
But here’s the basic challenge. Show me that, given equal training time, you can engage a target with a modified failure-to-stop drill with your chosen handgun or shotgat as fast or faster than with a modern carbine. That means 2 to the head (t-box), 2 to the chest (use whatever hit zone you prefer, 10″ ring or one of the modified scoring zones) with no projectiles off target. 7-15yd is a good distance to try for, depending on your house.
Now, if you’re on a budget, using your CCW inside the house is a solid plan. Throw a reliable light (TLR-1, X300, etc) on it, get the holster to match, and get good with it. An HD gun without a light is a wrongful death (meaning you kill someone you shouldn’t have, regardless of whether you can be sued or charged for it) waiting to happen.
Recap: frangibles are a shit gimmick and you need to do some independent testing, carbines>handguns>shotguns for inside the house, get a light so you can ID your target, and you have to penetrate before you can overpenetrate, and it’s a lot harder to send one into someone else’s house if they all have to go into your assailant first.
Just a nitpick:
If I hit center mass with 2 shells of 00 buck, do I really need to pull off a headshot?
Maybe. He might have on a vest. ;o)
Not after getting shot with 00 he doesn’t. We got bored and shot a vest that had died of old age. Stapled it up against some 3/4 plywood. The 00 punched a 4″ hole into the plywood and sucked the vest all the way through it. Recovered the vest, and then tried again with hp slug. It went through the vest, and the plywood, and sucked the vest about halfway through. At close range, you might as well be dapper in a cummerbund rather than wear a vest.
“…through the wall… and the next wall… and the tree outside…”
Ah, the old .88 Magnum.
I detect a possible methodological flaw in your results:
“a vest that had died of old age”.
Besides which, mine has a ceramic trauma plate right over center mass. Might affect outcome slightly.
The wast majority of criminals don’t wear protective vests.
Not really. There isn’t a magic switch that makes the vest instantly useless at a specific date, that’s just as long as the manufacturer will stand behind it’s claims based on average use. This one wasn’t even worn daily, it was probably good for a few more years, but why risk it?
And that ceramic plate will stop a slug/00 buck, and then immediately transfer all of that energy to your chest. Let me know how effective you are with no air in your lungs, multiple broken ribs, and a possibly stopped heart.
Although now I want to shoot a ceramic plate, it’s been years since I did that.
Yes, that’s why they put the in vests, because they don’t do any good. 😀
Well to be honest, if you can put 2 rounds in the center of mass with a rifle (figure a slow split time of .25) then you’re not likely to need the shot to the head. Most long arms actually have an 80% 1-shot-stop rate, so statistically you won’t need even a second shot. The reason the drill exists, though, is that 20% chance when someone won’t stop. The only guaranteed instant stop is to shut down the CNS with a C-spine hit. If you were a good enough shot, a .22LR would do it.
Under real world conditions, though, that’s nigh on impossible, hence the failure to stop drill. Or as i mentioned, you put two shells of #00 buck (or god forbid, #8 like some of these assholes) and he doesn’t stop, then what? Or when there’s more than one? Yeah, home invaders don’t -usually- wear body armor. They don’t -usually- require even a second shot. Sometimes even the WML flash for target ID is enough. I don’t know about you, but I don’t make assumptions. I don’t assume that the person I’m aiming at is an enemy until I have positive ID. I don’t assume one shot will stop, I don’t assume that he’s alone and not wearing one of the vests you can easily find for $50 at a gun show or $99 on ebay, hence the rifle, the ammo, the time spent training, the light, and the multiple shots.
Yes, the .380 you’re comfortable with is better than than the .45 you can’t control, but you give me a couple hours and I can have the vast majority of shooters confident that a $700 AR is the best thing since sliced bread, and I’ll have them shooting more accurately, more quickly, and more confidently. Give me a few hours of youtube time and I can show you every gel test worth watching about ammo selection, performance, and whatever else it takes to convince a reasonable, open minded person that birdshot is shit, frangibles are shit, and that there is no magic bullet. Point being, it doesn’t take much to breed confidence and competence with a firearm, just time, training, willingness to learn, and a bit of money for ammo and rangetime.
And for a shotgun, I much prefer #1 over #00. Both will more than satisfy the standard 12″ of penetration, and the higher pellet count gets you a better chance of hitting important things. The diameter difference won’t matter much at all, if any.
My point with the “use what feels best” argument (and I will assume that I speak for most people who are proponents of it) is that a weapon that is comfortable to you and that you understand and can reliably manipulate the controls of is going to benefit significantly more from actual training than a weapon that you are not confident in using.
I will not argue that the average rifle cartridge is going to out-stripe the average pistol cartridge. I WILL, however, argue that a 9mm you can easily and reliably use is better than the nicest, most rugged AR if the AR makes you worried about what you are doing.
But opinions are like assholes, so I will stop puttin’ mine in your face.
For home def I have to agree with Jay..
Pistol or Shotgun….noting better unless you prefer swords. I also agree that for indoor home def..the pistol needs a suppressor unless you sleep with ear protectors on your night stand.
I don’t like either the AK or the AR… this is just me though.
I’m a Fan of the FN F2000. 5.56 or .223 works the same for the most part with low occurrences of FTF
And the FN FNC AK 5C. And the Steyr Aug.
As J knows, I prefer Hi Point and Colt Pistols.
Never mind swords.
A good iron bar about 15 inches long will do extremely well in many cases. Or a simple hammer. Heavy blunt objects (Maces, in effect) are hellishly destructive to tissue and bone. Almost anywhere you hit someone with one is going to do serious harm AND deliver a surge of debilitating pain.
Unless they’re seriously over-wrought and/or drugged, that is. And for the drugged folks, well, a busted joint still leaves the limb non-functional. And a busted head is generally an immediate fight-stopper.
Easy solution to the AK vs AR debate.
http://www.faxonfirearms.com/p/13/arak-21-upper-receiver
Boom.
(And they are supposedly working on short-barreled versions of both existing calibers as well as one for 7.62×39.)
I’m waiting patiently for the full auto compatible upper with the 9″ .300 barrel. The lower is already built and siting in the safe.
Years and years of abusing an AR, and every jam I ever had was due to bad magazines. We used to do pushups on them with hands on the stock and a frame, never broke one yet. My only issue with the AK is that I refuse to pay $700 or more for a gun that cost maybe $100 to manufacture. At least with an AR you get some nice machined parts to look at.
Closest firearms to my bed are my carry pistol and a mossberg loaded with 00 buck, along with flashlights and enough pointy things to outfit Vlad Taltos.
“I refuse to pay $700 or more for a gun that cost maybe $100 to manufacture”
My good sir, I do believe I have the solution to your problem.
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DIY-Shovel-AK-photo-tsunami-warning!
How you like them apples?
I loved it when I saw it the first time, but last I checked even the crap parts kits are >$200. Damned firearms import sanctions. I still regret buying a gross of SKS rifles when they were $50 a pop. I’ll end up building an AK from scratch one of these days though, just for fun
AK vs. AR.
Bollocks.
Give me a proper battle rifle. An M-1 or (preferably) M-14. Or, depending on the circumstances, a Mini-14. Perhaps maybe something by FN..? Yeah – That’d do nicely. Or maybe something in German, like a G-3. Can’t beat German engineering. 🙂
” Can’t beat German engineering.”
Stalin would disagree.
Engineering != tacticals and strategery. When you have a complete fucking lunatic micromanaging every aspect of a two-front war, things can really only go one way.
Is that jab at Hitler or Stalin?
Yes.
Considering the relative kill rates, Stalin would most certainly have agreed – It wasn’t German engineering that failed.