MANY, and I cannot stress that word enough, of you sent me the link to the video for the R.I.P. bullet. Sure looks cool! And wow, so many hi-tech visual effects! I’ll be honest, I wouldn’t mind testing the 12 ga version.
But then I looked at the specs, and… um. Hmm. 96 gr all-copper projectile? Isn’t that, I dunno… kinda light? Especially when it’s designed to fragment FAST in soft tissue? The original press release claimed 16″ of penetration. I did the math, thought about it, and… yeah. I had to call bullshit. Besides, even if that was true, you’re talking about 16″ of penetration by tiny, needle-like, SHARP chunks. No actual cavitation, which is where HP and frangible rounds tend to really do the most damage. Firing a needle thin piece of copper 5″ into someone, center mass, isn’t going to make them drop to the ground and die instantly.
Not saying I’d want to get shot with one, but… yeah. I decided days ago that no, I’ll stick with 158 gr SP in my revolver, thanks. I’ve literally blown a gallon jug of gelatin to pieces with one shot of that old tried-and-true ammo. I have the feeling that this stuff would just pop tiny holes in that same jug.
Oh look, an independent test by a blogger shows my suspicions to be true.
Nope. Pass. Although I may see about taking an expired brisket out to the ranch and testing this stuff against actual meat.
RIP is just another answer in search of a question. I’ll stick with my Speer Gold Dots, thanks.
No, it’s definitely answering a question someone asked:
“How can we charge $2.50 for a single 9x19mm cartridge?”
The fragments over-penetrate, meaning energy wasted. They will, however, create multiple nasty wound channels.
That said, this round, however scary looking, is almost certainly less efficient than the Glaser. And almost certain to be banned specifically as ‘too scary.’
Uh…no…the fragments do not over penetrate. They only get, 5″ into the block, which is seriously under penetrating. Even the base of the bullet just squeaks past FBI minimum penetration on a bare block with 12.75″, a mere ¾” of an inch over FBI’s regulation of 12″.
Multiple nasty wound channels? Yes. I would hate to be the doctor removing these from a patient.
Clearly, you and I have been watching different videos on this ammo.
Consider that this is a Bad Idea™, I don’t find myself surprised that there are a lot of alternate videos.
I watched one of their promo videos. Where they talked about how it “spins like a buzz saw” or some shit. Where they used tiny little blocks to make the round look far more impressive than it really is. The base penetrated to 16″ (Which isn’t over penetration either).
Except look at the video, and read the article that is posted in the comic commentary. Which shows where I got the figures for the penetration. Someone testing in a proper size, calibrated block of actual Ballistic Gelatin.
I like the idea of bumping it up to a 12 gauge. an ounce and change of flechettes in a waxer slug out of a 3″ magnum shotshell?
that might be worth something.
It’s been done.
Aaaand leaving dozens of needles with sharp edges for the trauma surgeons to nick and scratch themself on when they are trying to dig them out.
That will be one of the arguments used against it by the PR hacks, you can be Certain. That was, indeed, one of the aguments used against the Black Talon bullet.
So—you’d end up like the woman in these X-rays?
http://www.livescience.com/42524-gold-acupuncture-needles-in-knees.html
The phrase “expired brisket” makes me want to cry a little.
Without regard to how good, or bad, these rounds are, I will tell you right now that they are a prosecutor’s wet dream. Best carry, ammo wise, for defensive use is as close to what the cops carry as you can get. Then, if and when you have to use deadly force, you can point out that you were only using what law enforcement uses. This is also the reason I would not carry handloads. One other note: Not nearly enough gun owners consider the legal ramifications of the rounds they carry.
I have heard this argument 1000 times, but no one can seem to provide an actual instance where ammo or caliber choice (ex: 10mm) led to a prosecution for manslaughter /murder/nullified self defense/whatever.
Source please…
I’ve heard this preached a ton too.
While I’ve never seen any reference/source, I can only look at society and see how they freak out over things that aren’t what they claim they are (AR15 anyone?) Or how all gun owners are all just looking for a reason to shoot, etc.
There’s a good chance that race will come into effect more than ammo choice (Any one know what Zimmerman has his .380 loaded with?)
Still, it’s probably prudent to make sure your ammo is off-the-shelf and not branded “RIP”
Zimmerman used a Keltec PF9 with what looks like ball ammo, but you can’t really tell.
http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/18514185/photos-gun-used-by-george-zimmerman-in-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin#axzz2sTM8xADM
They don’t tell the whole story on WHY someone was convicted. Just that he was convicted. Think about it. Jurors are more likely to be swayed by a prosecutor saying, “Mr Johnson wanted to shoot someone, and the proof was the ammunition in his gun. It was Killem-Dead cop killer rounds.” Now if it’s a gun owner who hears it, you get rolling eyes. If it’s some wet-nurse who already fears guns, He’s guilty. You can guarantee you’ll go to court for it. Might as well make your defense lawyer’s job easier. It’s not what you know. It’s not what you can prove. It’s what you can convince a jury of. My girlfriend works at the Public Defender’s office. Innocent people are convicted all teh time because of a shrewd prosecutor.
I use FMJ rounds in my 1911. Why? Two reasons. 1) It’s what the gun was designed for. 2) they are cheap. I don’t use anything special, and if I am ever asked about the rounds I use, I’ll say, whatever was on sale(truth). As long as my pistol keeps feeding it, I’ll keep using it. Why do I use a 1911? I know how to take care of it from my time in the service. I hear people talk about how the Glock is superior, but every time I pull that trigger, I get a bang, so maybe they are doing something wrong, or I’m doing something to take care of my firearm better. Or maybe I just happen to be lucky. Either way, It’s what feels the most comfortable in my hands.
I can think of a perfect reason why I don’t use FMJ as a self-defense round, over penetration. If I have to use my firearm for self defense, and miss, I don’t want it going through 3 walls and into my neighbors house. Theoretically, I’d like for it to stop once it has hit it’s first barrier (be it human or drywall and plywood).
Target or “ball” ammo is not a safety net from your courtroom fears. Using your logic, FMJ’s could be used against you in court for a manslaughter charge.
It’s a give and take on both ends. I understand your hypothetical courtroom logic, but I have also NEVER seen an actual record (courtroom records are public record) of a prosecutor using this and winning the case solely because of ammunition or caliber size.
So again…source please.
I’m aware that they would call FMJ “Military Grade Ammunition” and have heard that used in a SD case. Talk to an attorney if you would like. You probably should know one anyway just in case, because if you ever have to fire your weapon in SD, there’s a good chance you’re going to court. I have a good supply of them who are friends of my girlfriend. They all say, don’t use a modified gun as your carry, and don’t use anything that suggests killing. Again, the only reason I specifically use FMJ instead of something more along the lines of Critical Defense is that the 1911 was designed around firing FMJ. Hydroshock and the like might work, and might feed well for some, but I suspect many who hate the 1911 got that way because their hollow-points misfed. If you’re using a Glock or any other handgun designed around hollow-points, that’s the way to go. Whatever ammo you use, it should be what you practice with though. Not just because it makes certain that your firearm can handle it, but again, it makes your defense easier. Heck look at the Zimmerman trial. They threw anything they could fit into the prosecution. They might not get a conviction(every time) but they might be able to convince the jurors you are not a nice guy. And a lot of people get convicted because the jury thinks he’s not a nice guy.
And another thing… IF you have to shoot someone in your home, and you are questioned by the police, STEP ONE!!! Get a lawyer involved, and tell the officer, “I need my lawyer present before I answer any further questions.”
As Ben Franklin said, “It’s the innocent who need lawyers. The guilty can lie for themselves.”
Don’t confuse the order on the steps either: Call the lawyer, have THEM call 911. If you start with “Hello, police? I just shot someone” you may as well stop there. Poor choice.
Better: “Hello police? There’s been a shooting”
Best: “Hello, lawyer, shyster, and solicitor, LLC? I need you to place a call to the police for me, I just stopped an assault by using a firearm.”
Ah, the myth of “overpenetration.”
Please name any round that will reliably stop an attacker and not go through 6 layers of drywall.
You can send the $50 to my paypal.
Lethal rounds go through walls. Always be sure of your backstop. The end.
Someone is going to bring up 12 gauge birdshot. Wrong.
Eh, depends on the wall. They aren’t all drywall, or even wood, even in home construction. 😉
Phil, In his MAG 20 class, Massad Ayoob related the story of Harold Fish. He killed a nut case in a SD Shoot. However the DA was able to get a conviction based on Fish’s use of a 10mm handgun. The DA demonized the 10mm and JHPs as proof of wanton intent, and the idiot jury went for it. (I’ve been thrown off of jury panels because I knew which end of a gun the bullet came out.) Cite: http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2009/07/21/fish-ordeal-%E2%80%93-over/ He was eventually freed by an appellate court, but he spent a ton of money on his defense and many years in jail.
Even if the police on the scene rule it a justifiable self-defense shooting, you still have to worry about a civil lawsuit to cover wrongful death, and/or the medical bills, lost wages, and so forth of the person you shot and/or his survivors.
Google “Harold Fish, Arizona”
R.I.P. Ammo is so awesome! The only other round that comes close to it’s organ shredding awesomeness is….22LR
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/02/daniel-zimmerman/g2-researchs-rip-ammo-ballistic-testing-phase-one/
Yeah I’ll stick with my 147gr Federal Hydrashok.
.22 LR is an amazingly lethal round – considering it’s mild terminal ballistics – But it’s not generally a fight-stopper.
I was about to say… the IDF had some 10-22s for a while because they wanted “less lethal” firepower. I guess they wanted to patch up and subsequently interrogate their dirtbags. Turned out that they were just about as lethal as anything else though so they discontinued their use.
In his younger days, my father used to travel with some folks from a three-letter agency. In places where triple-canopy jungle was the rule. His task on patrol? Shoot the ‘other guys” patrol point man in the eye, preparatory to executing an ambush. With a suppressed Nylon 66.
You wonder at his interest in highly-lethal ammo? Now you know.
I’m not calling bullshit, but do you have any actual documentation? I mean, every story a vet tells their friends and family is God’s Own Truth, even if it contradicts some other Truth.
Because if he was really doing that, he probably wouldn’t talk about it, ever, to anyone, for several reasons.
Expired brisket? Never heard of such a thing.
As a fellow Texan how can you ever let a brisket expire?
You can buy them expired if you know a good meat counter worker. Sometimes the bastards just don’t sell.
Great for ballistics tests, tho
Massad Ayoob has horror stories of prosecutors trying to whip the jury into a frenzy against some self-defense shooter, claiming that the only reason a person would use JHP is because they have murderous intent. I think this dates back to when JHPs were first widely adopted by most law enforcement; they may date back to when the NYPD was still using .38sp S&W revolvers loaded with LSWC as their standard duty sidearm and ammo.
I’d probably stick with 115gr CorBon for 9×19, 230gr HydraShok for .45 ACP, and …. I’d try to seek out Dale Towert’s stopping power data if I had to choose for some other chambering.
Which reminds me: I had a copy of that a good while back, and both of those chamberings have a real-world history of stopping about 66% of those struck with a single round to the torso in FMJ.
Ayoob was one of my favorite policy thinkers/writers. I haven’t followed up on his stuff recently, but as an office of the law, he had an inside niew that was often very frightening.
Does it go bang in my gun? Does it penetrate and expand in the target? Yeah, that’s what I’ll carry. This whole defensive ammo thing has long since been figured out. Why these boutique developers try to reinvent the wheel is anyone’s guess.
Money.
That’s why.
Money from idiots, which is the most plentiful source of cash there is.
The R.I.P. will be outlawed post-haste. It’s too scary to the idiots.
Also, it’s a horrible bit of PR, aimed at all the worst in people, and will be capitalized upon by every ‘Banner’ out there.
It’s also a bad bit of design, from a terminal ballistics approach: It wastes energy on over-penetration.
Allow me to expand (heh!) on that:
Some thirty, thirty-five years ago, the US Army developed*, via the Ballistics Research Laboratory and Human Engineering Laboratory, a pistol round that did what this bullet does, without the excessive over-penetration that this round shows; IOW, ALL energy was dumped in the distance of about 2/3 the depth of an average human torso with multiple symmetrically-radial major wound paths – And it only expanded in media with the density of flesh. It was a really lethal round, especially for pistols.
It was so lethal that Every. Single. Round. had serial numbers – and had to be signed in and out individually. That means that if you signed out seven rounds, you signed your name to seven receipts, each receipt for a single round.
The consequences of general-issue of such a round were so daunting that the Army – an organization which exists for the sole purpose of applying organized violence in support of our nation’s policies – chose to discontinue and bury the development of that bullet.
If the US Army is so afraid of such a design, you can be damned certain that the Government and the various politcal and PR hacks will come down on this HARD.
*How do I know this? My father was directly involved. I’ve actually laid eyes on the bullets in-question, before the Army’s lawyers shat their collective pants and buried the project.
I call bullshit. The military’s ammo is governed by The Hague Convention, for starters. And there is a pretty hard and fast limit imposed by physics on just what can be crammed into a pistol’s chamber and fired by a human hand.
No no no, the US never signed nor agreed to that part of the Convention. We follow it, and most NATO countries do, but we can us whatever we want.
We can’t use rounds that, quote, “calculated to cause unnecessary suffering”, but we didn’t agree to not use ANY rounds that, “expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.”
I am not real good with ballistics, so I don’t know the validity of OPs “they were scared” story, but legally it seems legit.
Good catch, I stand corrected. The “unnecessary suffering” bit can cast a pretty wide net, but that’s probably why all the military/police studies use the term “stopping power.”
Still stand by my call of BS on the super-secret-mega-ammo’s existence though. Lots of goofy stuff has been tried over the years, but it still boils down to something less than 250 grains of dense matter propelled by less than 600 MpA of pressure (both of those numbers are far, far higher than realistic loads. I rounded way, way, way up for the benefit of the doubt).
And at the end of the day, there just isn’t that much matter that can be crammed into a pistol cartridge. You can only go so high with these numbers before you run out of space in the bullet casing, make the gun blow up or Newton’s third law makes your arm fall off. Even the heaviest element found on the planet is only 1.7 times heavier than lead. There just ain’t that much room to improve on the concept.
Dave The Great; go right ahead and call BS all you want; you’re clearly not aware of a number of ugly facts about the world.
Primus, the Hague Convention, for instance forbids using weapons weapons which cause excessive harm against individual soldiers. The Us army gleefully fields .50 BMG sniper rifles. Also designed microwave pain rays (ADS). And focused audio pain inducers (LRAD) Which are very designed to be used against individuals – and who’s use is are also largely circumscribed by the lawyers. The Hague Convention is a scrap of paper that is observed only so much as individual nations care to observe it. And the United States is quite happy to flaunt it in many ways.
Secondus, why d’ya think the Army’s lawyers shat themselves? Because if something like that were used, other nations *would* use it also – Quid pro quo.
Tertius; I never said anything about massive energy levels – You utterly mis-read my post if you think I said that. It has nothing to do with high energy levels – It has everything to do with very careful engineering and a LOT of number crunching, followed by a lot of testing. Which is what BRL and HEL exist (Existed? Not sure they go by those names any more) to do. And Both agencies were closely related to ARPA. The word you’re looking for, and have failed to find is frangible – in this case highly-sophisticated frangible designs.
Seriously, dude, you have better war stories than the Ranger SEAL Tunnel Rat Combat Controller I met last week.
You and your father must be awesome.
Oh, and did you see the independent tests that the ammo is shit?
Also, isn’t it a bit odd that no engineer or physicist has ever duplicated that discovery? Only the US Army, an organization known for its forward thinking and willingness to adopt new weapons?
Yeah. Awesome.
Radically Invasive Projectile? How come no sex toy manofacturer hasn’t staked the trademark on the name before?
Marketeers.
This was wrapped in ‘Boma levels of bullshit from the very start. Jeez people – think!
Preemptively banned in California. Har!
Thank you SO much for today’s strip. I am a long-time shooter, carry concealed every day and am starting my own gunshop. I’m a serious Pro-2A guy… and I cringed when I saw the publicity on this. I just saw re-runs of the whole Black Talon fiasco playing in my mind… and then I saw the part about each bullet being made on CNC machinery.
Seriously? They’re going to MACHINE EACH ROUND??? My immediate prediction was that it was going to be priced at over $3/round. IF it ever made it to market, that is.
My next prediction is that CA will ban them first, followed by (in this order) NY, NJ, and MD. MA will try it but Governor MiniMe won’t be able to get enough votes because most of the MA legistraitors like him less than they like the head of the MA Gun Owner’s Action League.
Anyway, thanks for making fun of it. I admire the research that must have gone into the design… but the marketing sucks.
Boutique companies machine each round. Lehi Defense, for one. While those G2 boys were wrong about most stuff, that is the best way to ensure a prescored copper projectile does its job. look at their Maximum Expansion line. They get ridiculous expenasion and penetration from a subsonic .300 Blackout, and machining copper is the most efficient way to do it. Just throw a copper whatsihoosit on your CNC, push butan, and go take a smoke break.
I could see machining individual bullets if it where something cool, like a match+ round for ridiculously-long range shooting (1000+ yards), or for something cool because it is unique like a bullet machine to match a specific barrel and ride the rifling, but for something to buy in a box? That doesn’t work? That is really fucking expensive?
Naw. Too many bullets that work better, that have a better reputation, that are cheaper.
Cool is only worth so much money.
machined*
G2’s ad copy is so wrapped in BS it’s almost unintelligible. See Zimmerman’s review on TTAG that Phil linked to above (7:14 am). Zimmerman points out that they most likely deceptively used an non-standard, smaller block of ballistic gelatin to make it like their round nearly blew it up. this is all marketing, hoping you’re dumb enough to not figure it out or read reviews.
It’s basically a Flechette round for your pistol. Thanks but I’ll stick with slugs.
I love the video! And I agree with those posting about Glaser Safety Slugs and Hydroshock. What we have to keep in mind is fatality is not the goal in self defense or in a police situation. The job is to knock your opponent down and keep them down.
To me, the RIP would fail to deliver on knocking down your opponent. The shrapnel would certainly cause lawsuit-provoking complications, after your opponent pummeled you into oblivion.
Only for use with, ” HIGHLY EFFECTIVE Counter-Islamic terrorist force multiplier” lubricant.
BUY IT NOW!
http://www.silverbulletgunoil.net/
That is probably one of the funniest things I’ve seen.
I remembered seeing it somewhere on the net. Apparently Mohammed foresaw it, because the guy that wrote the article mentioned that the Koran says that if you touch it on accident it doesn’t count.
Look up DDupleks Hexolit 12ga instead. Those crazy Russkies have been making what the RIP wants to be, only cheaper and effective. Use them for bear.
On an unrelated note, Two Lumps evidently failed to update.
Out of curiosity, does Godkiller Industries also make arrows out of mistletoe???
Or slingstones made of gods’ blood?
The perfect ammo to go with your ghost gun. 🙂
God, I had about 137 links posted on my FB wall, with “MIKE, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS???”
I finally started replying, “It is the most awesome ammo ever. You should empty your savings and buy $10,000 worth.”
It has been proven time and time again that the only thing that stops an attacker quickly is a dramatic loss of blood pressure.
tiny, 1mm wide holes don’t lend themselves to quickly ridding organs of blood. I think we will end up finding its field effectiveness is around that of 1-2 .22 LR rounds, if not even less effective.
Or severing the spinal column.
Or damaging certain areas of the brain.
“Expired brisket”? Everything I know about Texas is a lie!
In what kind of Texan house does brisket stick around long enough to expire?